Invictus (Part 2), by Tara Goedjen

Tara is doing a series of interviews with people from different backgrounds in order to examine our changing world through their eyes. This is the second part of the second of those interviews. For the first interview, click here.

For the first part of this interview, click here.

TG: As an observer of two very different worlds, your perspective must have widened considerably. And what was your experience as a child as opposed to Nava’s more sheltered experience?

RS: I grew up in Lesotho first, which wasn’t affected by apartheid, so I grew up with all my little friends being black kids because I was one of the only white kids in an African country ruled by Africans. And then we moved to South Africa when I was six or seven, and my parents, because of our Baha’i faith, used to go into the townships. Nava has told you about them? They’re something like favellas in Brazil.

TG: No, she didn’t go into the definition of townships.

RS: They’re areas that were artificially created outside of the cities where migrant laborers conglomerated. Initially it was just temporary housing, but then it grew into communities. Designated areas just for black people. As the demand for labor grew and as the populations grew, people from rural areas streamed into the cities and lived in these townships and these townships just grew and grew. The population of Johannesburg’s anywhere between 5 and 7 million, and the population of Soweto, the largest township, is anywhere from 2 to 4 million, and might be even more now. Most of the townships are at least 50% shacks. More and more are getting government housing, but a lot of the government housing is equivalent to a “shack” in terms of the protection it offers, because everything’s built quite poorly.

TG: And you mentioned you lived near a township.

RS: In a suburb pretty close to one, so I used to go into townships occasionally growing up. There were Baha’is in the townships, and we had a relatively good relationship with the communities there. The Baha’i community was one of the few religions that had black and white people who would meet together. But there were laws about that. And often you would have Baha’i meetings in the 1970s and 1980s where black and whites weren’t allowed to meet in the same room, so you would have an artificial partition or a wall with a door between the two rooms to allow a meeting to take place.

NS: So we tried to follow the laws.

TG: Were any Baha’is punished for their activities?

NS: In general, no. Some were spied on. But I think we weren’t punished because one of the principles of the faith is to obey your government. So we never tried to create any disturbances, and we tried to follow it [the government] as well as we could. They [the government] followed us, and questioned us.

RS: But there was nothing serious. The Baha’is weren’t there to stand up or oppose the government in a militant way; their opposition was just through cultivating communities and teaching the principles of unity and oneness. Breaking down racial barriers through interactions.

NS: Some of the Baha’is from African backgrounds who became Baha’is ended up leaving the faith because it was too hard not to be political in the country.

TG: They wanted to challenge the government.

NS: That’s it. They could see the spiritual principles, they understood them and believed in them very firmly but they also thought that it would be responsible to do something. Physically and proactively against the government.

TG: When you were going into these townships, was there any palpable tension if people didn’t recognize you?

RS: There was a lot of police presence in the townships so it was rare for a white person going in to be harmed (not that the police presence was there to protect black civilians, it was there to prevent uprisings). If you were there in your car people may have guessed that you were there for a good reason.

NS: That you cared.

RS: That there was probably a good association. Of course a lot of people may not have done anything just because of the consequences—it’s hard to tell. These days with so many criminals (who are a true insult to everything that South Africans fought for) I feel a lot more tension entering an area with a notoriously high crime/murder rate.

NS: In South Africa, my experience has always been that the blacks have an extremely forgiving nature…I don’t think the racism has been hardened there like it has here. There’s a lot of racial tension in South Africa but I feel that it’s still capable of being transformed—the situation is in a more malleable state…

Another midwife enters the room. Rob remarks that it’s very odd that four births are happening all on the same weekend, and that no one is due again for a couple of months. It seems momentous events occur all at once…

NS: My sister and I grew up in South Africa thinking that America didn’t have prejudice, because blacks and whites have equal rights, and in South Africa we saw an extreme split. And yet I remember speaking to a black guy at a Baha’i conference and he told me that he’d attended a racism conference in Johannesburg (this was about 5 years ago) with people from all different countries that had been split on the black and white issue. And he says, “You know, I can’t understand the Americans and why they’re not getting over it…they have education and equal rights and this happened forty years ago ,” he says, “and we’re in South Africa where it ended only ten years ago and we’re working through it.” He had grown up in apartheid and couldn’t understand what he perceived as racism in America. So I feel like it’s very malleable in South Africa and there’s still a very generous spirit and a very warm accepting spirit. And that’s why I’m also very fearful because the longer we don’t resolve the internal hurts on a deep level then the more the racism is going to become crystallized, and the more people will become angry and harsh.

RS: And there are so many wealthy South Africans (white and black), who just have no interest in tackling poverty, racism etc…They just want to live their lives, they just don’t care. I think consumerism has really taken over South Africa and people just want to live their little lives and live in their nice posh areas by the sea. They don’t want to know about what else is going on, they don’t want to put in the effort to reaching out. A pessimistic view would be that the major factor pushing white South Africans to reach out and change is that it’s their only way to survive if they want to live in Africa—it’s not due to any fundamental belief in the oneness of mankind, but rather out of necessity—that being economic survival. An optimistic view would be that there’s a larger group of white and black South Africans who truly believe in the oneness of mankind and see each other as equals and complementary to building a great nation.

NS: You’ve got an upper-class black society now that’s becoming the same sort of hands-off as the whites. It’s almost as if economics is taking over, but racism will be blamed. Economics has come into it. That’s what I also fear, that racism will be blamed for situations which aren’t racist…

TG: Which are instead due to economic differences… From listening to you it seems the difference between South Africa and America is comparable to a relationship. If you have say a couple, and they have their problems, and they communicate their problems in the open then it’s more likely to be resolved, rather than, as perhaps in America, if you don’t talk about the problem or if you’re not honest, then it festers.

NS: And I think also that it’s not only talking about the problem, but it’s when you’re lazy, or a bit irritable—and I find this in my own relationship with Rob—you want to find something to blame, so I will blame him. And I feel in South Africa it’s the same. We’ve got so many problems. From AIDS and poverty and no schooling and no houses…So many problems that racism becomes an easy target, something very tangible that you can blame for past hurts. We had an NGO who came to work in South Africa, who had previously worked in the Caribbean, where he had great results. But when he was working in South Africa, in Cape Town, the results were small in comparison…He spoke to a well-known African leader and the leader said that the problem with South Africa now is that everyone has a mentality that “we deserve.” So among the blacks it’s “we deserve” because we suffered, among the coloured it’s “we deserve” because we suffered, among the whites it’s “we deserve” because we made this country what it was, so it’s this mentality of “we deserve” and that we must get out. So you deserve, you don’t need to do the work, and then you can blame. Which is very scary. But at the same time you still have such an energy there that I feel very hopeful. Because you have a lot of good people who are really working hard.

TG: Since you’re mentioning all these problems, I’m just wondering on personal level how you responded to these situations in your country.

NS: I think my lack of awareness when I was younger has made me want to be very aware now. In South Africa you get people who hate South Africa. They’re sick of the crime, they’re angry with the people, and they’ve left—the ones who can. A lot of the whites and wealthier South Africans or those with foreign passports or skills in demand overseas. And you get people in South Africa who are pissed and who’ve lost hope, and who want to escape, but they can’t.

RS: They don’t have citizenship or they don’t have skills to get out of the country.

NS: You’ve got a lot of Africans who have come to South Africa from other countries because it’s the only hope, because their countries are in civil unrest, so they work bloody hard when they’re in South Africa. As a Baha’i I really believe the world is getting better. And it’s got to get worse before it gets better because people have to realize that the things of this world are not going to solve the problems but instead God and the spiritual world… That’s a very broad view of my spiritual beliefs. As I understand it, the Baha’i writings speak to the fact that we’re in birthing pains and that we’re giving birth to a new world order. But most of the world’s in birthing pains and they don’t know that they’re giving birth to anything. They’re just in this labor and they have no idea what’s going on. And I think that’s worldwide; South Africa’s just one of many countries. America’s going through its own turmoil. So personally, I love South Africa, I have a very strong connection with the people there and I feel like I want to do something to make it better. I believe that it is going to get better, but it might get a lot worse first.

TG: So you have plans to return to South Africa?

RS: Very much so. I need to take a break…one of the main reasons for me is a health problem with my adrenal glands. Stress compounds it, and the crime and stress don’t help the recovery process. And I know being here I’ve made a lot of improvements in the last five months. I think part of that is just not having that low-grade constant awareness, that hyper-vigilance.

TG: From crime.

NS: I leave South Africa every year to Asia for a month or two, it just gives you a break from having to worry all the time. And in South Africa as well, if you lose your job you can go on unemployment but it’s not the same, there’s really no such thing. Here if you feel you lose your job you’ll go onto food stamps, you’ll be taken care of, but there you’re not. I’m blessed and fortunate enough to be able to take a break. A lot of people can’t. And I can imagine that creates a lot of tension and trauma.

TG: Would you say that the violence is mostly because of the economic split, or out of necessity?

NS: I think the violence in South Africa has its roots in apartheid. Because apartheid was a highly brutal, highly violent system. It depended on migrant labor, which has broken up families. The men left their villages, their families, their kids, to go work in the mines. So this is a huge legacy left in black and coloured families. The roots [of violence] are in apartheid but the economics now has made it far worse, and also people are moving away from their cultural and spiritual values. Before, Christianity was very strong and you also had your cultural values so you didn’t kill and rape people.

TG: Cultural values learned from parents and communities.

NS: And now people have lost all sense of those [values]…You should watch a movie called Tsotsi. I promise you’ll understand a part of South Africa. When you see how kids are treated in that film you’ll understand why some people now have no care of human life when they grow up. That’s when it really hit me. When you treat a kid like they’re an animal and they mean nothing, they’re going to grow into adults where human life means nothing. And I think that’s in South Africa. And the wealthy suffer, but the poorer black and coloured communities suffer far more than we suffer. It’s just the wealthy have the voice and the capacity to speak and complain. My family though has suffered a lot.

RS: Have you gone into that or not?

NS: No. And that’s why my siblings don’t want to live there. They don’t understand why I want to go back. They just want to leave it behind. My father was killed there.

RS: He was murdered eight years ago in a car jacking.

NS: So my family has suffered a lot, but it’s the way you look at it. For me, now I can speak to those who have suffered and know where they’re coming from. I share something with them. And I know where they’re at and I can connect. For others, they’ll just say, “this country is a waste, why are we here?” I have an inkling of what everyone is going through all the time. So I have a deep love and a connection to the people and I want to make it better. They have no place to go. They can’t leave. We can, if we want, but I don’t want to. That’s why I think I have a strong, strong love for my country. Because…my father gave his life there for principles he really loved.

TG: And you feel connected to your country.

NS: I feel like now my life is there, that’s where my home is, in Africa. What happened has strengthened me and my love for my country. So it’s not that I don’t have a lot of fear, it can be very scary, but I also know that when I work with the youth and my community there, I feel like I know them, and they’re my kids, and I want to take care of them and make sure they have a life, in a sense.

TG: You’re strength’s visible.

NS: Sorry. You can carry on.

RS: It’s a very complex place. Looking back the last six months, just being out of it for awhile…That’s how we experience South Africa, personally. The toughest part of it is having family members who’ve been killed. Everyone has a family member who has suffered when something serious has happened. And that’s just one of the problems. We’ve got the highest number of AIDS patients in the world, not the highest rate, but the highest number of AIDS sufferers in the world.

NS: We’ve got one of the murder and rape capitals of the world.

RS: The third highest murder rate, or top three murder rates for countries not in a war zone. If you compare the figures, South Africa’s had…twenty thousand a year. Two hundred and forty thousand murders in the last twelve years. And that’s how many people died in the tsunami in Indonesia. That’s a quarter of the number of people who died in Rwanda and Burundi in 1994. It really does take a toll on the people. It’s not enough to be a war zone, but it’s too much to forget. Each year, with that rate, it just builds into the psyche more and more. It just happens enough that a lot of people live in fear, or everyone’s hyper-vigilant. And that’s from the crime. We’ve got the highest Gini coefficient in the world.

TG: The economic indicator for the ratio between rich and poor.

RS: Yes, we have some extremely wealthy individuals and companies—we even have a dollar billionaire. We also have an unemployment rate officially around 35% but realistically closer to 45-50%.

NS: It’s such a unique place.

RS: You’ve got a great love of life there, too. I would guess that fewer people suffer depression, a lot of people are happy and warm at their core.

NS: There’s so much you can do there. I was working with some kids in a school, and [I saw how] the people are so ready to [help]. But I think that’s everywhere. You work with youth and children and they realize they can be anything they want.

TG: From what you’re describing, it sounds like South Africans are resilient.

RS: All groups, actually. If you look at the European settlers, the Dutch Protestants, they came from religious persecution in Europe to South Africa. And then they fought the English. The first concentration camps in history happened in South Africa. The British set up concentration camps for white Afrikaners during the Anglo-Boer War in 1899. So you have this white Afrikaners group that’s continually fighting. They fought against the local tribes, fought against the British, so they’re always feeling like they’re trying to survive, they’re a minority in the country.

TG: So, Nava, in the beginning you talked about how you saw a deep connection to the Earth. And over the spread of history there’s been so many challenges, that you have to basically adapt, learn how to fight, learn how to survive amid turmoil. Or would you say that for every bad thing in South Africa there’s a good one that makes it a place to love?

RS: We’ve got one of the most moderate climates in the world. Geologically we’ve just got nothing to worry about. No earthquake concerns. It’s a very stable climate, no extremes in weather. A lot of sunshine. A lot of natural beauty. Not many harsh, physical realities to deal with.

NS: But my biggest fear is the materialism that’s seeping into South Africa. And I think it’s worldwide, too. There’s this great sense that materialism is eating into the vitals of human society. That’s a Baha’i quote. It’s like a cancer. And that’s how I feel about South Africa. Materialism’s eating into the heart of Africa. And South Africa more so, just because we have so much economic wealth. It’s so much more prevalent and visible there.

TG: Even from knowing you briefly, I’d say compassion and awareness are part of your character…but some of it must have come from your family and from the Baha’i faith.

NS: Sure, but like everywhere, you get some Baha’is who are totally materialistic. But if you read the writings of the Baha’i faith you’ll find the purity of the faith…I did my master’s in sustainable development, and for my thesis I used a lot of Baha’i writings on sustainable development. I found this wealth of beauty and amazing text that I could bring into my thesis. And that’s how I think I’ve become so aware, being able to combine…

TG: And make connections, links.

NS: Yes, link the writings with the current state and plight of the world and my own experiences in South Africa. I felt like my world was down here [she points at her knees] and then my masters took me up here [she reaches over her head]. For the first time my faith became real, it wasn’t just living in an idealistic little bubble anymore.

TG: You saw how you could apply it to life.

NS: It became a real thing. Like love your neighbor. Well, what does that actually mean when you’re looking at the world’s problems?

TG: And what gave you the idea to approach sustainable development through the Baha’i writings?

RS: There’s so much information in the writings about so many topics, like science. One of our fundamental principles is the unity of science and religion. We believe they are the two wings of a bird. We also believe that men and women are two wings of a bird, female and male, and it’s quite obvious when you look at countries where people haven’t applied that philosophy…My dad’s a Baha’i and he’s a physicist, and he ties the faith and the science very closely.

TG: So believing in the Baha’i principle of unity gave you the creativity and the openness to apply the Baha’i writings in your sustainability research.

NS: Yes, I’ve always been very passionate about the Baha’i faith, and I also wanted to take sustainable development and understand what it is, and how it could be linked to South Africa and the world…